Episode 30 with Devi McFadden

Narrator:

Welcome to Cyber 909, your source for wit and wisdom and cybersecurity and beyond. On this podcast, your host, veteran chief security officer and cyber aficionado, Den Jones taps his vast network to bring you guests, stories, opinions, predictions and analysis you won't get anywhere else. Join us for Cyber 909, soon to become 909 exec. New name, same podcast.

Den:

Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of Cyber 909, the podcast that brings you very little cyber and actually more of real world stuff around leadership, coaching, mentorship, and how do we thrive in this world of technology. And I managed to find some amazing guests and I've gone through the network and been pricing out guests that I think are really valuable in your life as a leader, building teams and how do we get to a position where your team rock and rolls, they're like a Swiss Rolex watch and it feels effortless to deliver results and thrive within your business. So executive coaches for me are vital to that journey. And this episode we've got Devi, Devi McFadden joining us. And actually Devi, you and I both were at Cisco at one point, but we totally were shipped the night. So welcome to the show and why don't you just introduce yourself to everybody a little bit better than I'd done.

Devi:

Well, thank you so much, Den. I'm really happy to be here and thank you so much to all the listeners. So Devi McFadden, I'm an executive and team coach. I work with executives and leadership teams primarily in tech to really thrive professionally and personally. As we progress in our leadership, it can be isolating and we don't necessarily have that person to talk to navigate things with and to make those critical decisions. And a coach can be that thought partner. And so that's where I partner with leaders to do that in a way that is really genuine and authentic. I've really had the benefit of working with some amazing leaders throughout my career and when I think back on who they are, they were their genuine, authentic self. So I work with leaders to bring that genuine, authentic presence to everything that they do, the decisions that they make, how they show up with their teams. That's what I do.

Den:

Beautiful. And we will definitely dig into coaching and the value of it. My one thing before we get into who you are and your background, my one thing on this topic is we tend to get trained very well as technical individual contributors on technology stuff. But

The minute they take someone who's really good at that nonsense and they think, well, therefore you can lead that team from that point forward leading the team, whether you're a leader, a junior manager, all the way through your executive to your executive career level, there's really a distinct lack of training for how to be a really good leader. So let's talk a little bit about you because I want to spend a lot of time on there, but I'd love to, before we get there, let's talk about the young Debbie and what were you doing in your career, how did you get started? And then take us all the way through to the, how did you get to start your own business?

Devi:

Okay, great. Well, my career has been varied. I started off in a nonprofit, it was a subsidiary of a university and it was actually a federally funded project, and I was fortunate to have an amazing boss who really invested in me and supported me in exploring different things. And then I decided to move across the country and I came to California and I started over. And I was also, again really fortunate that I had an amazing boss who helped me to navigate and grow that was in healthcare. And healthcare was a great training ground. I mean, it's literally life and death, and so your decisions have a very different impact. And I realized that that was not the right environment for me, not a bad thing, but I was looking for more balance and people laugh when I say it, but that's what got me to Cisco.

I was looking for more balance. Yes, that's the reaction I get, but just having a job where it was global, but it wasn't 24 7 was really helpful for me. And so I knew I needed to make that shift. And I was really fortunate, again to work with a number of amazing leaders. And it was while I was at Cisco that I had the opportunity to meet a gentleman who became my mentor in coaching, and I just happened to be talking to him, well, what is it that you do? And I realized what he was doing is what I really loved about my role. I was an HR business partner for many years, and what he was doing was really partnering with those leaders and those teams on a much more intimate basis and a customized and personalized basis to support them to thrive. And I said, I want to do that. And that was about 10 years ago, and I went and got my training and I started right away coaching as much as I could. I continued while I was at Cisco and then I left and went to another organization. I continued there and then a few years ago I said, no, it's time for me to make this the real thing that I focus on. So I left corporate and I've been doing this ever since.

Den:

Excellent. Excellent. Yeah, it seems, I mean, I'm just on your LinkedIn profile, so round about the 2012 mark. So you're now about 13. 13, if my math is right, around 13 years in on this, what's been the biggest struggle? So you said, okay, so I'm going to do this myself. I mean, there's a couple of transitions here. So one is moving from one side of the country to the other. So when you've done that move, what inspired that move then? What was the biggest struggle you had to overcome when you made that shift?

Devi:

That's a great question. That was actually a family move. My ex-husband and I decided to move across the country for his job. And so what was hard about that for me was to make a move without a plan for my job. So I sat at home for a few months trying to figure out what to do with myself, and that was a decision that I made consciously. But given what's happening in the world right now, a lot of people and always true, but a lot of people are in that situation and it's not their choice. And even though it was my choice, it was really hard to figure out what do I do with myself? How do I stay healthy? How do I stay mentally alert and focused? How do I prepare for what's next? So that transition was hard of so many of us identify ourselves by our job and I didn't have one. And so figuring out how to navigate that time, it took a lot of patience and trial and error.

Den:

And I've got some experiences on this having not got the San Jose accent. So I've moved from one side of the world to the other. My ex-wife also made the move. She followed me probably about a year or so later. And while you consciously in your case made the decision, the other thing as well is, well, what's your alternative? If your partner gets a great opportunity and you want to be a supportive partner? And then this can go both ways, but generally speaking over history, it's been the job and then the woman follows along for love and all that stuff. And I look at it, it might sound like a choice, but it emotionally is just a mind fuck because the reality is you have a choice. Yeah, I can get divorced and not follow my partner, or I can follow my partner and screw my career or impact my career.

So as you were rationalizing, obviously what really isn't a choice, you're following your partner and you'd made that commitment when you started to think about, okay, I'm going to get into work. I mean, you were kind of going into the same sort of industry. What was top of mind for you when you started looking for something else? I mean, was it I just want to find a job or is it I'm holding out to find the right job? There's a lot of people that are going to listen to this and be in this scenario, so more prize now. What did you do? But what would be your guidance for people in the same position?

Devi:

Yeah. Well, one thing that I want to highlight is that hindsight's always 2020. And looking back, I know that that was the right decision because California is absolutely the right place for me. It's just my vibe. And once I got here, I knew that. And so I had the energy to persevere and push through whatever it was going to take. It's not like I was going to up and leave and move back, although I think my parents were hoping I would for a while, but California is just in my bones. And so I had that knowing and that helped me to persevere. At that point, I was very early in my career, so it was just to have a job. And so the decision making around the job was I'm very much a person who makes decisions based on gut feel. So there's the data and what's the commute and what's the salary, and those types of things.

But it was really around the connection that I made with the people. These are the people that I was going to spend most of my time with. And once I had the experience in the feel, then I was like, oh my gosh, yes, this is a job that I want. Not because of the salary, not because of the work itself necessarily. I'm also one of those people that the work can be the work. I mean, I'm not so focused on the work itself. It's really the impact that it has and the outcomes and the people that I'm working with. And so working in healthcare, this was my first time in healthcare, so it felt like a place where I could have an impact and support those who are serving others. So being in HR and healthcare, I was supporting the client or the patient facing staff. So that felt good. And I was working with really amazing people, people who also had a desire to nurture and support others. So for me, this feels good. This really feels like the right place, and that has served me through my career. There have been opportunities that have looked great and maybe I should take that opportunity, but it didn't feel great. And I've stuck with the ones that felt right and those have served me really, really well.

Den:

Yeah, it's funny. We can spend a minute talking about gut feeling, right? I mean, I think there's a whole thing there for me, I think of my inner self, my inner consciousness, my gut feeling. I trust that more than most things in the planet. I mean, I could have someone tell me something to my face, and then if my gut's sitting there saying, this doesn't sound right, I'm usually right. It's not. I'm usually right. I think my subconscious is usually right. That gut feeling is usually great to trust.

Devi:

I'm curious if you had to learn to trust that gut or if you've always trusted it.

Den:

I think I trusted. So sometimes you'll trust it easier than others. And then when it comes to the tough decisions, the big life-changing ones, and I remember going through my divorce, I remember thinking, is this right? I was trying to look at the impact it was about to have. I was trying to look at all the circumstances. I was looking at my career, I'm looking at my home life, I'm looking at my all of that stuff.

And while some of the things said, oh, everything's right here, just push through. And now I'm like, no, my gut for years has been this isn't right. And at some point I start to pay attention to the signals and then realize that, yeah, this is right, so I'm going to have to make a shift. And I think when it comes to easier decisions than go with your gut, if they're easily reversible, that's easy. It's when it comes to the tough ones. And I learned early on in my life, I would not necessarily go with my gut . Later

In my life. Gut wins 99% of the time. Absolutely. I kind of got it now. So when you joined Cisco, it is interesting. So you go from healthcare into the Cisco environment. I've been there for a minute. I wasn't there as long as you, but I was there for a little minute. Now you hit 10 years, which for Cisco people, 10 years is not long at all,

Den:

Right?

Den:

Yeah. So what made you take the leap? Because your roles in Cisco were all pretty significant roles. I mean, you certainly within a few years, you're getting into the executive coaching early on. So what made you decide that Cisco was the right move?

Devi:

Oh, so similarly, I was in healthcare and I was in a good place, but I also knew that it wasn't the right fit. There was that churning that it's time for a change, and I really didn't know how to find something else or what I was looking for. And my only experience in the Bay Area was in healthcare. So I didn't know anything about tech and Silicon Valley or any of that. So I started working with a coach, a career coach to help me figure out what's next. And he connected me to a leader at Cisco and she said, oh, you should talk to this person over here.

It was just one of those things. One connection led to another, and I went in. I remember going in and interviewing and meeting all these great people. And then there was a leader that I was meeting with. He was going to be my client, so he was an IT leader and I was going to be his HR business partner. And it was not the interview that I expected. It was not about my background and my experience. It was not about all of those things. And it was much more about who are you as a person and what are you looking for and how can you help us in really bringing that genuine, authentic leadership? And the end of the conversation, he said, I'm going to need to support you to this. So he wasn't just looking at what I was going to bring, but he was also looking at how I was going to grow in the role.

Den:

Yeah, that's

Devi:

Great. And he was already talking about investing in me, and I was like, what? I mean, I am so thankful, and that's the experience that I had over and over and over again. So yeah, he nailed it. Yeah, for

Den:

Sure. And I think that's the one thing is when you think of any of these relationships in your professional or personal life, I like to think of it. I'm a giver, right? But I'm like, how can I help? How can I help? How can I help? And then I've had some people say, well, wait a minute, others take advantage of you. And in my experience, very rarely does someone take advantage of you and quite early on your gut feeling, you'll sniff that shit out.

Generally what happens though is the universe gives me a lot back. So as much as I put into it, I get back. And not always from the same people that you give to, but I look at that, I think people get the energy, they get the positiveness, and they then vibe and you attract that positive group of people. And then I do make a little effort to avoid some of the negative people in my life so that I don't get so down in the dump sometimes when you talk to too many Scottish people because it's always raining over there. So you spent more than half of your time at Cisco as an executive coach. What do you feel when you think of, so in Cisco or beyond Cisco, now that you've got your own practice, what do you feel is the ultimate goal of someone in your role? What is the pinnacle of success from the start to the end of a coaching agreement? Arrangement, something? Yeah, one of them.

Devi:

Well, the pinnacle of success is my client's success. That's the short answer. It's what is my client success? And oftentimes as a coach, I'm brought in by the company or the leadership or HR or something like that, but I'm coaching that individual or that team. And so their success is my success. And it can be a lot of different things. Sometimes it's really getting clear on those personal values and how to live that life. And so that might mean that I'm going to leave this organization and go to another organization. I still consider that a success because that individual has had a success and it's a success for the organization because they had someone who was maybe taking up space and not doing exactly what they needed.

Den:

So

Devi:

Now they have that freed up and they can bring in someone that will give them what they're looking for, even if they were a high potential and they're doing all the right things, they weren't doing it with their full energy. So I consider that a success. Sometimes it's about executive presence or personal presence and leadership brand. And I always think of that. A gentleman that I worked with that he wanted to increase his brand as a leader, and he wanted to go outside of his company and have more name recognition and those types of things. And so he was doing a lot of speaking and he's traveling and he sent me a picture. He landed in Las Vegas, and you know how they have those big huge billboards as you're walking through the airport? He was on one of those billboards. Brilliant. So he sent me a picture of himself in front of himself, and it was great. And that was months and months and months after we stopped coaching. But his success is my success.

Den:

And I think one thing as well, a good measurement of success I imagine, is that they do contact you months or years later. I remember contacting one of my coaches and being like, I got this great promotion in my work, and she had been giving me coaching several years before that were really part of the seeds that enabled that. And I texted her and I was just like, just want to say thanks. I got this promotion and you're a huge part of the success of that journey. I just wanted to acknowledge it and just say, Hey, thanks. So I can imagine for you, that guy sending you the picture, that's his acknowledgement of your success and his success together. So that's amazing.

Devi:

Absolutely.

Den:

Yeah.

Devi:

And it's really an honor to be able to be a part of people's journey in such a specific and intimate way. I mean people, to really work with a coach effectively, you really have to be willing to be open and to allow this person to poke places that you may not want to poke on your own and to say those things that you don't necessarily want to hear. But that's really where the unlock happens. That's where the magic happens. So it's really something that I take very seriously and honor the profession, honor the individual and the trust that clients are giving to us as coaches.

Den:

Yeah, I was thinking as you were talking there about how some of this is part leadership, but part therapist, part babysitter. I mean, I kind of go through, I was talking to somebody about leadership. I was giving some a mentee some advice, and they're a senior engineer, but they want to be a lead. And my conversation with them is, well, let's recognize those are two different careers.

Den:

Yes.

Den:

The thing that drove you to be an amazing engineer and you might want to share your engineering greatness with others. That's different from being a leader and responsible for building an organization and responsible for people's careers and so on and so forth. That said, sometimes in leadership you deal with negative things, 80% or 60%. It is escalations, it's complaints. No one knocks on your door and says, Hey, Dan, I'm having a great day. Thank you very much for that advice last week. You don't get that shit. You get the other shit, right? Yeah. And now you made me think of that one, but the other word you used is brand. The coach I was talking about, she was always on about brand and communications and how communications impacts your brand. So when you talk to people about brand, how do you explain it? And then how do you explain the benefits to an organization when they actually are consciously aware of their brand and how to build their brand?

Devi:

When I'm referring to leadership brand as an example, how do you want to be known as a leader? What do you want people to experience of you as a leader? Do you want them to experience someone who is just giving orders and is just telling people what to do? Or do you want them to experience someone who is supportive and invested in the individual? And how do you invest in the individual and you have a business to run and making sure that that's what you're leading with and that's what you're making decisions from, and you're making decisions that are authentic to who you are as an individual. Because if your brand doesn't match you, everyone knows that it's disingenuous, it turns people off. So it's very much an introspective process. I mean, there are a lot of tools and resources and questionnaires and things that you can do to define your brand, but it's a much more deep experience and process of how do you actually translate that into how you show up every day? How do you lead?

Den:

Yeah, I was going to say you used the word experience, right? Yes. Because really as a recipient of a leader, so when your boss knocks on your door, you always leave with an experience. You always leave with an impression. And I love how you phrase it. It's like, how do you want them to experience you? Right? It literally is that. So let's talk about, so you started the business, so you'd worked for other people. What made you take the decision to say, I'm going to do this myself, I'll start my own consultancy. What was that trigger and how did you get that started?

Devi:

It's actually interesting. It was less of a conscious choice and just something I needed to do. So when I met my mentors, I mentioned earlier, I just started on this journey right away. I just knew it was the right thing. So again, it was my gut just saying, this is the right thing for you. And that inner voice just knew. And so I started my coach training with the intention of five years, five more years at Cisco, and then I'm going to start my business. That was just always the intention. And I ended up leaving Cisco less than five years, and I went to work for my first boss at Cisco. She was then at Xilinx, and she's an amazing leader, and I was like, I have to go work for her. I can't turn down this opportunity. And it was great. I'm really glad that I did, but I made the conscious decision that I'm not going to start the business at five years. I'm going to put it off for maybe two years. And I did end up waiting that two years, but it was always the intention. I don't know why. I've never been like, oh, I'm going to be a serial entrepreneur or anything like that. It's just coaching is the right thing and this is what I want to do and I'm going to go after it. And so here I am.

Den:

Excellent. That's excellent. So you started the business, and so yeah, you started the business, what, 2015 in the background, I'm guessing as you're still at Cisco, like you say now, when you flipped the switch to be full time on this, what was going through your head as the scariest thought?

Devi:

That's an interesting question because I probably underestimated it, so it wasn't as scary as I probably should have been, but I was fortunate that I had a good client base to begin with, and I had a good network. And so I didn't have some of the startup challenges because I'd been doing it for so many years. And it wasn't until I was actually in it that I started to think about some of the other things. And so the marketing and the strategy and of some of those other types of things, and I'm still figuring those things out and working my way through, but I'm really thankful that I did it on this journey that I got to really hone my craft first. Spending all of those years really just focusing on being the best coach that I can be and that I was really fortunate that I have this great network and I was able to build my brand as a coach before going out on my own, having a great network of clients that continue to reach out and refer and those types of things. So I guess I wasn't as scared as I should have been, but I've made my way through.

Den:

And it's interesting because one of the things, I've spoken to quite a few people that have started their own businesses, but they were hustling on the side for several years before. So they got to the point where the money they're bringing in with their side hustle is now getting to the equal to the money they we're making with their full-time job. And they're like, okay, now we can just flip this over. And I think for a lot of people, that's the best way to ever start a business. Absolutely,

Devi:

Yeah,

Den:

Because it reduces your risk. Now, Mr. Jones here didn't do any of that shit. We just literally left the company and going, I'm going to do this myself. Yeah. So it was really, I was the opposite to most of the people I speak to where I didn't have that foresight, but literally our startup that I was at got acquired, and then I'm like, okay, well, if we're going to get acquired, I've got three choices I guess, and it goes from being the CSO at the startup to start my own business or get a real job. So somewhere in there, I'd done number one first for a few months, and that wasn't panning out. So then I decided, okay, I'll start my own business. And I didn't have any clients. We just started, and then all of a sudden you're starting to tell people that you're doing this. But the thing is there was no pretext to any of it. It just one day appeared. So now we're in a position where we're starting to build up client base

Den:

Because

Den:

We've been having conversations last year, which is, I am too. Oh, what's the word? I'm impatient. So for me, it's like nothing comes fast enough and I can see the vision, I can see the whole thing play out like you did with your business, so nothing comes fast enough for me. So the kind of people that call you today, what's an example of a good client?

Devi:

So that's actually two questions. So one is the kind of people that call, and I think they fall into two buckets. One is high potentials and the other is problem and not problem person, but a problem to deal with. So people are most often aware of the problem side of it. So this person, we want to see them work on their influence more. We want to see them delegate better. We want to see them develop their leadership brand. There's something specific that's been identified that we want this person to do differently or to do better, or the individual saying, in order to get that promotion, I need to do this. And so I really want help to cross that line so I get that promotion or whatever it is. The other is high potentials where there is an individual in the organization that a leader or the organization or team is ready to invest in recognizing that that's going to retain that individual, that it's going to have a positive impact on retention and retaining other team members as they see the investment in this individual and their growth.

And there may be something specific to work on. They're new in an expanded role. Oftentimes that's where coaches can be really helpful. Like you said that this person's really good at what they do and now they've been promoted and they have no training whatsoever as a leader. Or maybe they have been leading for some time, but now they've got this much bigger remit or much bigger team. So working with a coach can help in those areas. So the people that come to me, I say fall into those two areas, the ideal client is the person who's really willing to do the work, the person who's really willing to be introspective, to be vulnerable, to allow the coach to poke at those areas that they may not be willing to poke at themselves, and to really continue that dialogue of, wow, I hadn't thought about that. And yeah, that's true. That's right. And really work with that and continue to work with that. That's the best client. One of my very, very, very, very, very first clients was that he was wanting a promotion and wasn't feeling like it was going to happen, and he was getting feedback that you're too aggressive and things like that. And I was very brand new as a coach, but I was like, okay, follow the training.

And I gave him the feedback that it sounded to me like he was coming from a place of entitlement, like, you're entitled to this promotion. You've been enrolled for X years, so check the box. You should be promoted. And that's not how it works. And I'm pretty sure he was pissed. He was not happy to hear that, but he went away and he came back and he said, you were right. I was coming from a check the box versus really being ready and qualified. And so he took the step back and he reassessed for himself, and it shifted how he was communicating. So it shifted the energy that other people were experiencing of him, and lo and behold, he did get that promotion, but when he was aggressive, it wasn't going to happen.

Den:

Well, I was going to say it's interesting, but you used the word entitlement, but I always pick up on words. I'm one of those I hate reading and I hate writing, but specific words and communication really resonate with me. I thought and said this early on when I moved to the Bay Area, that a lot of people that grew up here I felt were entitled that sense of entitlement, which is I grew up here, born here, therefore I see me working in tech. What you envision and what you feel is naturally going to be yours

Is different than someone that moved from one side of the planet or one side of the country to the other. And you arrive in this valley, which is magnificent. I mean, I love being here because a lot of the people I meet, the diversity is brilliant here. Certainly compared to Scotland, the intelligence, the opportunities, I feel like there's just so much, and this entrepreneurial mindset I think is nurtured here really well. So entitlement for me is a huge thing. And I think what you key on is the behavior of an individual that feels that they're not getting what they're owed. And anytime I think someone's in that scenario, what you're describing is the person's pissed and they behave pissed, and therefore that shows up as maybe overly aggressive or disgruntled or dismissive or these negative traits. What's your advice? So let's go into some advice here. So one piece of advice for someone who's moving from a technical role to be a first time leader of people.

Devi:

That's a great question. Well, I would recommend that number one, they do the training, the education of leadership, understand what the expectations are of a leader in that organization, but also take some time to understand who it is that you want to be as a leader. What, again, going back to what is the experience that you want to create for your team, that's not something you're going to learn from a training. That's something you have to figure out for yourself. And that regardless of the organizational expectations, regardless of the training that you get, that is what people are going to experience and remember. And so be thoughtful and intentional about that. And it can change being completely new. As a leader, you may just want to not screw things up, and that's okay. I want to figure out how to navigate promotions and salaries and performance reviews and do that in a way that my team feels supported. Perfect. But then once you've got five, 10 plus years under your belt, it's going to look and feel different, but be thoughtful and intentional about who do you want to be as a leader and then use that as your north star for your decision making. That's the advice.

Den:

Yeah, that's excellent. So one of the things you mentioned was training within the organization. A good organization will have training for new managers or potential managers at Adobe. We on that, even if you were a lead

Den:

And

Den:

Not yet a manager, and they have a definition on that one, but they had managing within the law training they had about growing your team or they did a bunch of little things. But as you then go from a managing of team to managing managers, so let's say now we're climbing up the ladder a little bit here, what do you see as the difference on how you manage when you're managing ICS versus managing other leaders?

Devi:

I think there's a shift from manager to a sort of coach and mentor. You are not directing the work. You're not directly leading the people who are directing the work. You're leading someone else who's leading the people who are directing the work, and you have to help them figure out how to make this work versus telling them what to do in terms of how to make it work. So you become more of an advisor and a coach versus actually doing the work and executing through your direct team. And so putting on that hat of I'm not rolling up my sleeves and doing, that's no longer my job. My job is to develop more. So my job is to develop and to help other people figure out how to develop others. So it's a shift that I don't think that we necessarily spend enough time talking about. There's this expectation that, oh, your experience as a leader, you'll be experienced as a leader of leaders. And it's completely different. It's completely different. It's a different dynamic. It's different responsibilities. And there's also the role as a skip level leader. People really want time with their skip level leader. Oh, I want to increase my visibility. I want to spend time with them. And you have to think about how you show up with them without getting in the way of the relationship that they have with their direct manager.

Den:

Right. Yeah, that's excellent. As I ask these questions, I always reflect back on myself going through my journey, and I think everything you said is correct. I then overlay that with there's an emotional maturity of the leader. Absolutely. And then 20 years ago, actually, I'll go back to the mid nineties. My first ever leadership experience, I was a leader of two technicians, and I was just shit. I was just the worst. I didn't know how to delegate. Nobody gave me any training, and all of a sudden, I don't know whether I'm micromanaging one minute or being pissed off and angry and upset at them the next minute because I didn't know what, I literally didn't know what to do. And then when I moved to the US 2001, joined Adobe, I think within about two, three years, one of my bosses asked if I'd considered leadership. And my answer was really simple. I've tried it. I'm really shit at it. I have no business being a leader. And then he went, well, let's revisit it. He went, because everybody naturally gravitates to you anyway, and they follow your lead today as an experienced engineer. And I'm like, okay, cool, let's do that. And I didn't think about it until one day a peer of mine got promoted to be a manager of a team,

And I had no respect for this guy. I didn't like how he operated. I didn't like his ethics. I really just thought this guy is probably going to be the worst leader ever. And then my second thought David was, oh shit, if I'm not careful, he might be my boss one day. I should maybe get on the leadership track here because if that's the benchmark we're chasing in this company, I think I can do better. And that was the thing that gave me that. I went back to my boss and said, remember that conversation? I am interested now, but I'll be interested and let's understand. I'm going to need training and guidance.

Den:

Awesome, awesome.

Den:

Yeah, I recognize I'd been an ass before, didn't want to repeat the same mistakes. I wanted to be better, and that wasn't much better. But the good thing was I got a lot of coaching on the journey, and I would say the time I got to be manager of other leads and managers, I think I was good on my brand building that piece, but I still struggled on that shift. So how you describe it as really helpful. I struggled on that shift for the first year or two. Then when I got to be the director level or senior director level where you've got other directors and you're doing all the scapes and all the hands and all that stuff. At the same time though, for me, I actually just felt, felt like it's a lazier job because I don't feel, I mean, I was working hard, but I wasn't working hard on the stuff I used to work on. Right, right.

Den:

And

Den:

I felt because I'm not really helping the day-to-day stuff and the progress, then I'm lazy. I'm not really. But the reality was I spent more of my time clearing the runway, making sure my team had what they needed exactly, made sure that I could deal with escalations, and it's always doing my part within the team, but it just felt a bit weird as I matured as a leader.

Devi:

And that's the shift in understanding that is where your value is. When you're at that level, your value is not in getting into the details and getting into the weeds. Your value is clearing the runway so that other people can excel. Your value is in making a space where they can feel like they can do what they're there to do without the challenges and the obstacles and having their back. And that's where you add value. And so many times leaders struggle with exactly what you just described of, am I really doing anything meaningful? Absolutely. You're actually having an impact on people's lives. And that's why working with leaders is so exciting, because it's an exponential impact when you're that director, senior director, vp, et cetera, you're not having an impact on a team of 3, 5, 8 people. You're having an impact on an organization, not just the people in your reporting hierarchy anymore either. It's across the organization. So there's a ripple effect, and that's where your value was coming in and creating a positive ripple through the organization.

Den:

Yeah. It's funny you say that got, so over the years, I've obviously impacted a lot of careers, and the way I look at it is I have impacted careers and people within the organization has impacted my career too. No leader can be good at their job unless they've got a team of people underneath them that are excelling in their job. So if my team aren't delivering against our strategies and our roadmaps, then I'm probably going to get fired. So the reality is I see it as a symbiotic relationship, but building careers for me has always been such a pleasure and a gift that we get as leaders. One time a few years ago, the wife of one of the people in my organizations came up to me and she just said, I want to thank you on behalf of my family for what you've done to support my husband's career. And I just basically, because I make jokes of everything, and I'm very shit at taking feedback, like positive feedback. So I obviously turned it around and said, if it wasn't for him, I wouldn't have a career. So I said, so thank him as much as you thank me. It's his hard work.

Den:

Yes.

Den:

I mean, I said, thank you for sharing that. I feel blessed. And then I followed up with my shitty joke, which is the best way I could handle the praise. But I do see our ability to positively impact careers is huge, but it's not lost on me that some leaders, and I'm going to say, well-rounded leaders have had the unfortunate experience of having to fire people, lay people off, deal with personal tragedy. So there's the whole negative side. So I'm not going to wrap this show up in a negative thought though, but when you're dealing with people that go through the negative side of our job, how do you coach people so emotionally they're prepared as leaders to guide the organization through trauma, guide themselves through that? I mean, what kind of advice do you have for people that are in that situation?

Devi:

For me, it all comes down to integrity, being in integrity with the decisions. And so you may not necessarily agree with the decision, you may not want to lay this person off or something like that, but you can do it in a way that is in integrity and that honors that person as a person. And so even if there are really tough calls to make, honoring the values that you hold, and being able to say, I did that. I didn't enjoy doing that, but I did it in the best way that I could so that this person felt like a human being that was being supported, that's where I would direct them. Focus on that integrity. Even if you don't agree with the decision, you still are in a leadership role and it's a reflection of you. And what do you want people to remember? Do you want people to remember you not being able to support them, or do you want people to remember feeling supported even during a difficult time?

Den:

Yeah. And yeah, I remember back to an instance where I went on vacation and I came back and my boss called me the night before and said, tomorrow morning at attending training, we're going to have another layoff.

Den:

And

Den:

I was like, holy shit. And then in the morning, I was given the names of the people in my team that were going to be impacted because I'd been on vacation. Nobody asked me shit. So I got back and I saw the names, and one of the names was one of the people that when I first moved to the US was one of the people that befriended me, supported me. And so it was emotionally just heartbreaking. And I remember that morning thinking Shit, I'm going to have to lay one of my best friends or closest friends off tomorrow and carrying that for the 24 hours. And I remember speaking to my boss and saying, if you'd asked me who in the team was lower performing and would've been on my list, it have been these people. How did you pull these names? Where did you pull these names from? And I think sometimes as leaders, we do go through that emotional roller coaster. And the only way I could do you say that level of, and I think of in times of happiness and success, your leadership chops aren't really challenged,

Devi:

Right?

Den:

It's when shit goes south, there's an outage, there's a breach, there's a layoff, there's a whatever. That's when you really determine who the good leaders are.

And you talk about authenticity, integrity, and the humane side of that is where the empathy kicks in and you're like, let's have the conversation. You're human, you're professional. This will have an impact. So as I talked earlier about the positive impact to families, you at the back of your mind, and I like this guy at the time, his wife also worked at Adobe. She wasn't impacted, but they had two young kids or one young kid at the time, but they had young children with another one on the way or something. And it was like, oh, shit, you emotionalize that and internalize it. So I think for anybody going through those scenarios, I look at it and say, yeah, you've got to be empathetic. You have to think about the integrity. You've got to remember they're human, and you've also got to find a way to internalize it and depersonalize it a little bit. And if you weren't involved in the decision, you've got to remind yourself you couldn't control it. And one thing you probably couldn't have controlled anyway was the fact that there was a reduction required by the business in order for the business to then grow or stay alive. So whatever the reason, and I've came up over the years with one thing, which is I do not carry baggage of decisions that were out of my control.

I'll carry the bags for the ones that were in my control,

Devi:

But

Den:

I've refused to carry the bags for the ones that were not my whole life. I tell people that, stop stressing over shit. 80% of the stuff you're worrying about will probably never happen anyway, and the things that you're worrying about, if you had no way to influence that decision, then please drop it. Yeah.

Devi:

Yeah. There is one thing that you said that I do want to hone in on. And you came back from vacation and you said, where'd you get these names from? And part of our role as leaders is to make sure that we are giving the visibility to our team members. And because these decisions are being made in rooms that we're not in,

That's just the way it is. I mean, we can't all be in all the conversations and make all the decisions, so we're not in those rooms. So we have to make sure as leaders, that we are positioning our team members so that when those conversations are happening and we're not there, those leaders know enough about our teams to make better decisions. They may not make the right decisions, but hopefully we can help them to make better decisions. And sometimes our team members are not going to do it themselves. They're not about promoting themselves. They want to do good work and expect it to speak for themselves sometimes. So sometimes we have to do that positioning. Sometimes we need to encourage them to position themselves differently, but no matter what, we should be having those conversations. We should be promoting our team members and giving that visibility good or bad, we should make sure that the right people know what's going on with our team members.

Den:

And what was interesting in this one scenario, so there was only two people on the list, fortunately for me, one was a lower performer who would've been on the list, and then the other one was one of my best engineers. And while I was on vacation, he was covering for the team. And what happened was my boss had a business consultant, a contractor working with her at the time as she was kind of building the organization and doing whatever, whatever, and he happened to have a conversation with this guy in his one-on-one about the kind of work that he'd done as a business consultant and how the engineer guy was thinking about that might be something that he's interested in in the future. So he was looking for advice.

Den:

So

Den:

He took it as if this guy saying, I'm going to leave Adobe anyway, so that's how they explained it to me. And I was like, are you kidding me? Someone's asking about career advice and mentorship, something that could be years down the line or might never, ever happen. He's exploring an exploratory conversation and you guys didn't see that.

And then it was that I couldn't, I was like, oh my goodness, I lost my, I lost it. I was just literally like, so he's trying to learn and grow as an individual, and you guys are like, okay, well, we'll put him on the list. I'm like, that's not how it's done. So as we depart this conversation, Devi, I'd love you to leave everybody with one little gem, one little piece of guidance for someone who, and I'll twist this because we've not covered the diversity topic, which normally I would've been all over that shit, but I've done a lot of that over the last six months. But the thing for you, women applying her career, women of color, applying her career, starting your own business, there's a lot of women in your situation that want to follow your footsteps. What's the one piece of advice you can leave them with before we then say, you should come back probably, and we'll cover that whole topic later, but one piece of advice that you'd give everybody that's following your footsteps.

Devi:

Well, we touched on it earlier. I'm so thankful that I focused on the business on the side first and hone the craft. Really hone your craft, and that will then pay the dividends. So learn your business, whatever it is that you want to be in and become an expert, become really, really good at it. And then allow the business to grow when it's the right time. When you feel like, I don't have a choice but to go do this. That's not going to work for everyone. Not everyone's in that situation, but if you have that opportunity, I would say focus on your craft first and then the business will come.

Den:

Excellent. Excellent. So first of all, I love having this conversation. I love you being on the show. Authenticity just resonates. Your smile, your energy, your passion for what you do is just outstanding. We'll put in the show notes how people can get in touch with you, the link to your website and your LinkedIn and all the bio and all that usual stuff. I would love to reconvene the conversation in the future. I think there's a whole women leadership, women owned businesses building this empire, women of color. It's like there's a lot of challenges that you'll have gone through that we never even got to talk about. So I'd love to bring you back on in the future, everybody, the amazing Devi life coach, really life coach, business coach, professional expertise, you're going to get an executive coach with some wit and wisdom as well. Actually, I'd love to add that little tag for you.

Devi:

Thank you, Den. This

Den:

Has been great. Thank you very much. I appreciate it, and I'll speak soon. Thanks so much.

Narrator:

Cyber 909 will soon become 909 exec. New name, same podcast, and love. Look for the new name soon, wherever you get your podcasts.

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