Episode 31 - Unlocking Sales Success: The Power of 'Why Not?' with Rana Salman

Narrator:

Welcome to 9 0 9 Exec, your source for wit and wisdom in cybersecurity and beyond. On this podcast, your host, veteran chief security officer at Cyber Aficionado Den Jones taps his vast network to bring you guests, stories, opinions, predictions, and analysis you won't get anywhere else. Join us for 9 0 9 exec, episode 31 with Rana Salman.

Den:

Well, everybody, welcome to the first ever of our newly renamed 9 0 9 exec. You may come here thinking we were cyber 9 0 9, but apparently that terror, that dawn, that name was a little confusing for people. So we decided we would rename the show to 909 Exec. And then our first episode under this new name, I've got an amazing guest. So if you think of the theme of our episodes for the first 30, then most of the time we were focused on executives, their journey or people that support executives in their journey. And then we've got different executives. So it's mostly in tech, but then some are like, Hey, I want bring in the sales leader. I want to bring in some music mogul or some FBI agent or whatever. We're going to going to dig up from my network of fantastic people. So this episode is excellent. So I met Reyna a few months ago as she was leading a company through their sales kickoff, and it was fascinating to me, first of all the attention of detail, but then secondly, how she approached this whole thing. The first thing I said was, I'd love to have you on the show, Rana Salman, CEO of Salman Consulting. You're an author, you're a TEDx speaker.

I think I was thinking about this. Maybe you're the dog whisperer equivalent for the world of sales executives. So Rana, welcome to the show. Why don't you introduce yourself and do a little bit better than me?

Rana:

Oh, you've done an excellent job. Thank you. I'm pretty excited to be the first guest. For folks that don't know me, my name is Rana Salman. I work as an executive as CEO, Forsman Consulting, and we work with amazing companies, specifically medium to large size, fortune 500 IT organizations. And I work with sales leaders, sales executives, sales reps, enablement, product marketing to truly create and collaborate and create programs to help improve sales effectiveness. And I'm so excited to be the first one. Wow.

Den:

I know. Well, it's funny. So we'd done 30 episodes under Cyber 9 0 9, and then in reflection and talking with the team, it was almost like, well, wait a minute. We intentionally don't spend time on the cyber side of things, but we were like, let's focus on these executives that go through their journey and how do they survive? How do they thrive and how can we really try and enable and support that journey? So most of the conversations and the guests were all around that stuff. So it was apt to rename the podcast, but then also when we came up with a name, there's a consulting business is called 9 0 9 Cyber. So in my absolute lack of creativity, I came up with Cyber 9 0 9 for the name of the podcast podcast, and then people were just confusing the two names. And then also within the brands of 9 0 9, we have 9 0 9 Cyber, the Consultancy, 9 0 9 exec, the podcast, and then 9 0 9 ic, which is a new platform we launched last week that connects students in cyber with employers. So we call it ic, it's Intern Connect, but the reality is I'm trying to convince people that interns are not just for summer, hire them as part-time, flexible workforce, blah, blah, yada, yada, yada

Rana:

Are

Den:

Great. Yeah,

Rana:

Very strategic.

Den:

Yeah. And the one thing the late Great Steve Jobs once said is if you have some downtime, then build things that support your main activity. So if our main activity is nine to nine, cyber the consulting, then this podcast, I see. They really, for different reasons, support our brand and our consulting business. So you're a salesperson and there's me telling you, geez.

Rana:

No, I love it.

Den:

I love it. So Rena, first of all, I appreciate your time. We worked together in the sense of you were leading this activity and you had me part of it as we were doing a far side chat. So we'll get into that kind of stuff shortly, but can we go all the way back to the beginning? So what got you into starting this consultancy business? What was the impetus and what was the dream?

Rana:

Yeah, yeah. So I come from an immigrant family and I came to the United States when I was 11 years old. I was raised with entrepreneurs with folks that hustled and with folks that nothing came easy. And so I got to experience family members and being entrepreneurs and working hard and being creative and failing and learning. And at first then I didn't want to do it because it was hard. I saw how hard it was. And then as I had an inflection in my career where I sold almost in a lot of industries, I sold in it, I sold in healthcare, I sold in higher ed. And so I wanted to just, Hey, let me be empowered and let me try something based on my experience, based on what I know have worked, based on what I tested, based on being a seller myself. And I created a plan.

It was kind of like, okay, I need a strategy. It wasn't the greatest strategy, but I needed something. And then I started going out there and talking about it to colleagues and I started to reach out to people that already have businesses. And believe it or not, people are afraid to, people think that people will not answer their emails, but if you see the amount of entrepreneurs that met with me for coffee in Austin, those are folks that are really successful and they wanted to lend a hand. And so I learned a lot from those folks who I still ask for help till now, and that's where I created this plan, and then I tested it, refined it, and just grew and evolved it as we grew.

Den:

Yeah, and I mean, it's interesting you say that you met so many entrepreneurs, right? I've been blessed, I would say in my circle, people that I hadn't spoken to in maybe 10 years, I'm still reaching out to them and trying to reconnect and catch up. And I think the important thing is when you're building your network early on in your career, you've got to remember that you might need those people five years, one year, 10 years, they might need you might need them. So I kind of always looked at this like I'm nurturing my network. You've got to continually nurture it and grow it, and then within your network, try and retain the people in your network that I think are good people. I'm trying to think of words to describe this without pissing anybody off, but I look at it like you meet a lot of clowns in your journey, so don't nurture those relationship. But I think it's important to try and nurture relationships that you connect with on a human level. Absolutely. And I'm saying clowns, but the reality is you might be the clown when you're younger. I'd say I was stupid and naive when I was growing up. And as you learn, you get better and you become more mature and more thoughtful and stuff. So that network of who should be in your network, I think continually evolves when you're coaching people because especially in sales, right? Network, your network is huge. So what is it you share with people about their network and the importance of it?

Rana:

Yeah, I think there's an old saying that says your network is your net worth, which I truly believe it as I grew in my career. I think what I tell salespeople is you got to be strategic in building your network, but you also have to make sure that you're building a network where you're adding value. Networking is not just asking for help. It's about you adding value to your network. And so when you need help, people will help you, but going dark on people and then suddenly you need a job and you're reaching out or suddenly you need them to connect you with a client because they're connected to. That's not real networking. That's almost like using people and people see that it needs to be authentic, it needs to be genuine, and it needs to be strategic.

Den:

Yeah, no, that's brilliant. And that's the one thing I look at it like authenticity is everything. Trust, transparency. People need to have a level of respect for you. Otherwise when you reach out, they're not going to engage very well. Now a couple of things is you got a book out, so sales essentials. So can you talk a little bit about the consulting practice? I'd love to hear the story of what does a consulting practice aim to solve? And then I'm sure releasing a book always helps consulting practices and the brand and the reason of visibility and stuff. So can you talk a little bit about that? What are you solving? How does the book help, and what are the kind of key things in the book that kind of lends itself back to your consulting?

Rana:

Yeah, so I've been selling what now close to 20 years. And I wasn't a seller early on in my career. I was a researcher. I was getting my PhD. In fact, I was defending my PhD a few months before I got a job in sales consulting. And I got into it honestly because I went to school for so long and I needed to pay some debt, but I got in it and I just fell in love with it and fell in love with it. Not because it was easy, but because it truly brought in a lot of complexity about human behavior and influence and ethics and finance, financial. So it brought in a lot of complexity that I was like, wow, this is really not what I think about sales. This is really complex. It's a human behavior. And so through that, then as I develop my consulting firm and what we do is it's truly looking at what I call the sales essential skills.

At the end of the day, if you are selling in a B2B model and you're selling to the enterprise, it's almost like P two P. It's people to people. So those soft skills absolutely matter no matter what sales process you are having, the way you show up matters, the way you conduct a business level conversation matters. The way you show a demo and align it to the human and what they care about matters. Because at the end of the day, what customers tell us is really, your product is not that different than the competition. It's not, there's a lot of competition when they're selling what's different is how are we selling it, and also how are you connecting to their business outcomes to what they care about? And so that's kind of what we focus on is these sales essential skills that I call. And so the book focuses on three buckets.

I always think in three buckets before, during, and after the sale, what do you need to do before? What do you need to do during, what do you need to do after? How do you upsell? How do you cross-sell? And so those are the things, and they're real because at the end of the day, I went to school for a long time, there was a lot of theories, and theories sometimes don't work. You need practicality, you need to cut the fluff to have real examples. And so you'll see that it's very real and very authentic, and I call things out that are real.

Den:

Yeah, and it's interesting you say the three pillars of this, right? So before, during, and after the sale, salespeople generally in my 30 plus years of experience, they'll love you before the sale. During the sale, they come across like hungry animals and then after the sale, they're like in hibernation and you don't hear from them. And a good salesperson, I totally agree with you, a good salesperson, they're going to stick around, they're going to make sure the implementation was good, they're going to make sure you've got what you need. They're going to sometimes be the back channel back into the business for things that aren't working great. And at the end of it, they really, a good one will come across as if they care about the success of the thing they just sold you. I think there's a bundle of salespeople that once you get that deal, they're off to the hills to celebrate and you don't hear from them until the time for renewal, which for me just irks the shit out me, I guess. Yeah. So when you engage with a company, can you give an example of why a company would call you up? Is it because they're struggling on sales or because they want to rally the troops? What's the different

Rana:

Types? There's different types. There's folks that come in and they're hiring so many folks and they need to revisit their onboarding program. Sarina, what are some things you're seeing? And we don't come in and say, we know it all. We actually look at what they're doing, and if something is working, we say, okay, well how is this going to help us drive that strategy? And what are the missing gaps?

So that's one area. Another area they may be doing really well, but they're thinking future. We know that AI is a big, big, big topic. And how do we train and enable our people on integrating gen AI with the human dynamics, not forgetting that you're a human and train them on how do we integrate these both worlds? So these are companies that are thinking forward, but then there are companies that are struggling and rightfully so they're looking at their skills gaps and they're saying, Hey, we need help in certain areas. And so it really depends. And then for kickoffs, it's bringing new ideas, motivating people, getting them excited, aligning to the customer strategy. So those are some of the things where we work on. We also do academies. To me, because I've been a learner all my life and I went to school for a while as well, you can't become an expert in what you are doing in one training or one quarter. It's really a journey that you need to take. So what does that learning program look like and what are the accountability on the seller and the sales leaders to help change that behavior? Because a consultant can't do it, we can provide with what we see, some of the theory, some of the practical applications, some of the best practices, but at the end of the day, it's sales leadership and first-line sales managers that help hold people accountable to these best practices and to the behavior and also compensating these people around these behaviors

Den:

For the right, the compensating, the motivators matter, and it is really funny. Sure. Even I know sales compensation is a different beast all into itself compared to regular employees. I always look at this, how do you incentivize people to do the right thing and show the right behaviors? I can imagine a lot of it is more about culture, the organization. And what do you see culture, excuse me, how do you see culture shifting? And with AI coming around the corner, what do you think that's going to mean to sales culture?

Rana:

I think we're always about, people want to be fast, efficiency, efficiency, efficiency. I think we are, we can set ourselves up to fail if we also don't train our salespeople around creating a culture only about efficiencies, because there's also individuality at the end of the day. Again, if you are showing up just like a bot and you're sounding like everyone else, why would they buy from you? Right? They're buying from an individual. I had an example where someone said that if you send me an email and it sounds like a bot, I'm not going to answer you because I want you to treat me like a person. I want to know that you checked my LinkedIn profile, that you saw something about me that made you want to connect or have a conversation. And I think that's where we need to be very careful about the culture, that the culture is not so much focused on that tech stack. And then you shiny object and forget that there's humans that are selling to other humans. And look, man, people make decisions based on emotions. Emotions play a big role. Yeah, logic is awesome because we back our emotions with logic and we want those data and insights, but emotions play a big role.

Den:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, it's a gut feeling thing. I mean, that shit matters. And I think in the whole sales process, what I've been on the receiving end, then I've always focused on picking apart the story, the authenticity of the people that are trying to sell their stuff. And when we're coaching tech companies, startups, mainly in the security space, our whole thing is you've got to realize that 10 other companies say the same shit that you say, we are features and functions are best. Our speed to delivery is brilliant. We'll reduce your risk. Then they pull out all the buzzwords and the acronyms, and at the end of it, it is the same story. So the one thing, and you've mentioned this several times, is that they're building the personal connection that they using your network. A lot of the people in my Rolodex, sales folks there, there's not many of them, probably half a dozen. And then my little half a dozen list of people, if they call me, I'll answer because I've built relationships over the years with them. And mainly when they've sold me something, they've been there till the end.

And more so when things have gone wrong, they've been one of the first people to jump up and see how they can help. And then ultimately, when the deal's not being right, if they think their thing doesn't fit what our problem is, they'll be honest and they'll say it because they might lose that deal at that time, but it doesn't mean a six months or a year from now, the thing fits better then, and then I'll come back. Because the honesty that they demonstrated early on is the thing that builds credibility and trust. So that stuff matters a lot. When you were starting your consultancy, what was one of the most pivotal moments where I always think of, and you said this, it's very hard to start your own business. It's very hard to be an entrepreneur. Was it a pivotal moment where you almost thought about packing it in, but then

Rana:

I think there's times when it gets really hard initially where of course I was a great seller and I was making a lot of money, so money was just coming in. I was selling, taking care of my customers, and suddenly you're building. And when you're building, you don't have an income that's coming. And so of course there were times when I was like, man, did I do the right decision? But here's what kept me going. One is I believed in what I'm doing. I believe in the things that we're doing. I believe in our philosophy. Two is I surrounded myself with people that when I'm down, they're going to whip me and say, no, no, no, no, you've got this. Right?

So that was another thing. And the third thing that I also surrounded myself with, I knew growing up that hard work pays off. This was something that I learned, and I knew that one of my competitive differentiators, I can outwork. I can outwork my competition. And so knowing that, and having been proven so many times in my life, that hard work does pay off with competency. Of course, I saw a pattern and I knew, okay, it's going to happen. I just need to be patient and to have grit and I need to be consistent. And also to be frank, I have a partner that can support that. And I also worked hard that I can be without a big check for a little bit, right?

Den:

Yeah. And every entrepreneur I speak to, there's moments in their journey where they almost feel like, shit, I should just go get a real job. That thing where you're like, was this the right choice after all? But then there's something in the back of their mind which reminds them why they were either. So it's either a thing that reminds 'em why they were doing it, or like you say, a close friend in the circle that gives them that extra boost and says, yeah, you got this. Don't ever forget that. I look at it because as I've started 9 0 9, then this isn't easy and you're spending money. In my case, I'm spending my own money as we're hustling for clients, we're building the brand, we're getting the name out there. And if it was easy, my dad said everybody would do it. I guess for me, it's not easy, but I've had more fun on this journey than probably anything else I've done in my whole career. From a reward perspective, for you, what do you see is your reward? I mean, you leave a company after you've done an event and you're walking away proud of hundreds of people becoming better. What's there?

Rana:

I think what makes me, I dunno if the word proud, but what makes me feel like yay, I'm doing the right thing, is one, I feel empowered that I can walk away when it's not the right thing to do. I can, and the second thing is I can be very creative and nimble and fast, and so those things help me because that's how I operate. I don't want to work for a company where I have to go and talk to 50 million internal people. What is the right thing for my customers? And so that helps me. And when I see I'm doing the right thing, and then when we deliver and when we start seeing improvement and movement, that helps me see that, wow, I'm doing the right thing. And so those are some things. And also being able to walk away also to me as an entrepreneur, while it's hard, in the beginning I took things, but as I grew and as I recognize where I want to focus on, it was easy for me to say, yeah, this is not an area I want to focus on. I'm maybe good at it, but this is not an area I want to be focused on. That freed me up to focus on things that I can do better. So opportunity, cost and time prioritization became important.

Den:

Yeah, it is one thing that so many people have said to me about an early entrepreneur. Sometimes you'll take every gig because you're building, you need the money, you want the logos. And I've heard some people say to me as well about client abuse, where clients have been pretty abusive or spoken really nastily to the people's teams and they've sucked it up because they've been in their infancy and they just needed the money. They need the gig. And as they become more established, then the first sign of that stuff, they're confronting the client or they're walking away

Rana:

The best advice. Then I got, it was interesting because I would meet with these entrepreneurs and they would say, Reyna, create your business based on the 99% of the people who are going to be ethical, who are going to be kind, who are going to want you to succeed, because their success also depends on your success. And

Don't build it to that 1% that's going to come. And I really built that my company on leading with trust, and I haven't had any, I've been very fortunate that it does work because most human beings are really, they mean well, they have a problem, they want your help to solve it. And another advice that I received is when I started consulting many years ago before my own company is everyone is fighting a battle. And if you're an entrepreneur and you meet a customer and they're challenging you recognizing that they're dealing with something that probably has nothing to do with you.

Den:

Yeah, I've said this to people for years, you've just got to assume there's something else going on that you don't know about. Even in business, I'd be trying to promote somebody within my team, and my boss is like, now's not the right time. And I'd be like, well, if there's something going on above me that I don't know about and shouldn't know about, just nod. And then she'd be like, nod. And then you're like, okay, right. I'm not going to vigorously pursue this the way Dan Jones normally would, which was usually with a bit of a build in the China shop. Yeah. Now one thing, we spoke about this early on when we met. You're a former TEDx speaker, so I'm a big fan of the TEDx business. I love watching and learning a lot from that platform. Were, so why don't you share a little bit about, I'd love to, first of all, the topic I'm going to guess is about sales, but why don't you talk about the topic. I recall there's a running, I think there's a running element in here, an avid runner. So I would love to hear not just the TEDx thing, but let's weave in a little bit about the Rena, the runner, because it rhymes sales running consultancy and TEDx. How come these things all come together?

Rana:

And I think they all came together with the topic of the power of asking why not? And when you listen, when your viewers listen to it, they'll recognize that one of the common themes in my life has been recognizing the power of asking why not how it helped me in my business, how it helped me be an entrepreneur, how it helped my whole family immigrate, my dad asking the question, why not leave Beirut Lebanon during the Civil War and immigrate to the us? Why not, not my family. My kids have that opportunity to live that American dream. And so I took that theme, which has been my guiding light in my life is whenever I face something, I ask the question, why not? Why not? What is preventing me? And when you ask that question and you put down the why nots, you recognize those are not real. Why not? No one's going to die. So you start identifying those beliefs that you have and you start breaking them down. And that's what you'll notice about the power of why not is asking questions. Even when you're running, right, there are questions that you ask when you're running, there's questions when you build your business, there's question when you're asking, when you are doing a project, and when you step back and say, why not? It opens up possibilities.

Den:

Yeah. So how did the TEDx thing come around?

Rana:

Yeah, one of the things that I've done is you apply for these TEDxes, and this is where there's applications and you identify areas that are different ones. And so I started with ones, it was almost like a test like I was learning. So I would apply, I would get rejected, and I would be like, okay, well let me start to understand why am I getting rejected? And then I started doing more applications and learning as I go and talking to people that have done it, I would see someone on LinkedIn that has done it TEDx, and if someone I know are connected in my network, I would reach out and say, Hey, tell me more about how did you get into it? What was the impact? What was the outcome, what we're trying to achieve? And I also started thinking, okay, what will get you an increased chances of getting accepted? And it's really also in your community, right? There are, and that's what I would tell folks, look at TEDx is in your community and learn about the theme of what they want and then think different. How are you going to think different? How are you going to bring in a new idea to the audience?

And not that I got millions of views, Jen, I didn't, right? But to me, I didn't go viral, not Brene Brown or anything, but to me it was a moment where I stood on stage and I shared an idea. And when I get an email from someone that is not as privileged as we are in the United States or someone that needed that hope, that to me was worth it. That's giving back and paying it forward.

Den:

Yeah. No, that's excellent. We'll need to make sure, we'll put the link. I was taking notes there. We'll need to put the link to the TEDx, your presentation in the notes as well as your book and your website. Now, the running stuff. So running, let's talk a little bit. So that's your passion. What was the last run you'd done? I did see something posted on LinkedIn That's so long ago. So last run, but then more importantly, what is it about running that you think you can draw from that supports your professional career?

Rana:

Absolutely. So the last run we ran, my husband and I, so I married someone that also loves to run, and so that helps us in holding each other accountable. The last one we did was the big international marathon. We didn't do the whole marathon. We did one marathon a few years ago. But marathon takes a lot of time commitment. I mean, it's really as your life changes and it's only the marathon training. And so we did a 11 miler and it was beautiful. I would highly recommend it. What running does to me is one, it shows me the long, it helps in the long game. Sales is a long game, and the sales process when you're selling complex deal requires a lot of discipline, a lot of strength and a lot of mental strength. And so running has helped teach me that because there's a lot of mental struggles when you're running 13 miles, 22 miles, 26 miles, and that last mile is the hardest.

And it's not your body giving up, it's your brain telling you you're done. Why are you doing this? So that's one thing. Another thing is it helps us stay focused under pressure. I think any entrepreneur listening to this, you have to find something to do that will help release the stress and the pressure. And to me, running does that. It's therapeutic. It's also a way to meditate. Some folks meditate different ways. I can't do yoga, I cannot sit still, but man, I can run. And so that's where I use that time to really meditate and really just have time to be present. And also it's mental toughness. To me, sales is mental toughness because you are going to get rejected and rejected and rejected and in running you also can train so much. And then you get to the race and suddenly it's raining or suddenly you get a cramp. So you have to adapt. And selling is also about adapting. And so I use a lot of, on my LinkedIn, if folks read some of my posts, I really connect running with sales a lot. And it taught me so much in terms of life lessons.

Den:

Yeah, it is really, I've met quite a few, I'd say runners or fitness enthusiasts where they'll talk about what is it about the thing that they're doing, the discipline that they can then draw the parallel into the professional life. And I love how you've tied these things together because the reality is is it is a mind game more than it is anything else. And sales, as I've started 9 0 9, then I'm out there trying to build the brand, build the business, and really hustle for the gigs that are coming in for the team. I look at it, is it about getting all the yeses or is it about getting more nos? You see, because I read a book a while ago, and it was a case of saying, don't focus on the yeses. Your goal should be get a hundred nos. Because when you get a hundred nos, that's when you start getting yeses.

Rana:

And if you don't get enough nos, then that means you're not prospecting enough. This is where I tell folks, you got to get a lot of rejections to get to that. Yes, but that means you're doing your job because you're also learning from every rejection. For me, some rejections where I thought, oh my goodness, I was so sad and pissed, but now looking back, I'm like, man, this was a good thing.

Den:

Yeah, good learning experience. I also, I think there's a benefit to, if you do get a rejection if possible, working back with that client or prospect to understand why did we lose the deal? What was positive about the experience with us? What was negative about the experience? Why did we lose it? And then take that back and pump that back into your input on how do we improve for the next conversation. If every salesperson could leave, if they could go into the conversation with their objective being, I want to build a new relationship, I think they'd do 10 times better than the going into it with the, I just want to sell you my shit.

Rana:

Absolutely. Losing a deal does not mean losing a relationship. There's a lot of, if you look at my sales process where I would've lost, I would lose a deal, but then a year later I would get the same person would hire us. And the reason is because we nurtured relationships. We took their feedback, like you said, and we didn't go dark. Just because they decided to go with someone else doesn't mean that we lost that relationship.

Den:

Yeah. So I'll give you a great example. We were talking with the client about a fractional CSO opportunity, and some of the conversations were great, a couple of the conversations not so great, and in the end, we just assumed the deal was lost. And I text the person just out of the blue just to say, Hey, hope you're doing well. Just checking in. Shame it didn't work out with us, but just to let you know, we're still here. If you ever need any help, we're more than happy to help. I got a reply back within an hour that basically said, we still haven't fixed this problem. We still need help. Can we meet and see if we can salvage this and get moving forward? And I already thought we'd lost a deal. So I think the reality is sometimes just remembering that you're actually nurturing this relationship regardless of this deal or not, because this deal is one deal of many in your life.

And for me, in that scenario, I was like, holy shit. There was me thinking we had lost this thing that would be fairly lucrative for us in the sense of a great client, a great product, and a great opportunity, and then all of a sudden you're like, oh, shit, this thing could be back on here. So it's a case of, I think of it, focus on relationships a hundred percent. And as you go around your life, professional life, remember you're building your brand the whole time. So I got somebody, well, when I think of you, I think of in my limited experience, someone who's got great attention to detail, very thoughtful about the experience that you were creating in this SKO that we'd done the whole preparation, planning. It made it so easy for me to participate that I almost felt like, wow, this is the best experience ever.

And I was just a participant. I wasn't on the receiving end where you've got hundreds of salespeople in this organization who are benefiting tremendously because I saw my little piece of the puzzle and I'm like, shit, if you've done that for two days, these people must have walked away. Like mind blown, epiphany, nonsense. But I was super impressed. So when I think of a brand of someone, I walked away thinking, you've got great attention to detail. You have the ability to put on a show. And if you think of it like a production, I'm like, you have the ability to work with this team to put on a production, and then you're important wisdom. That's not just your own, but it's the collective of all the other things that you've pulled together to bring this team forward.

And I don't think you're sitting there consciously thinking, well, I should show Dan how good I am at these five things. It's just how you operate. So I was like, our brand matters. And I think in professional life and personal life, but professionally, if you could think of three words in the morning, when all of us, when you wake up in the morning, three words that matter to you from your brand and how you behave, I think people would start to change their life dramatically. What are your three brand words or do you have three?

Rana:

Doing the right thing. And I think as a seller, that's really important because you have numbers. You have a family to feed, you have your boss and you meet your quota, and you have to always think about, am I doing the right thing? And that's one thing that I learned early on from my parents being raised is values matter at the end of the day, are we doing the right thing to that person that we're in front of? And that to me, every morning I wake up and I'm going to do the right thing. And it always seems to work out, and sometimes it may be like, dang it. But I would also, when you think about professional brand, I want to also, for all the entrepreneurs and the folks that are listening in, first impression matters. And

If you're an entrepreneur and you're meeting with investors, the way you show up matters. How you're dressing, how you're talking, how you're carrying yourself, how your executive presence, those things matter. And I think one thing that I've done in my career that was life changing is I had a training where I recorded myself, where I was presenting, where I was pitching, and it was so cringey. I was like, oh my goodness, that does not work. So always think about that first impression. It sticks with people.

Den:

And it is interesting. You talk about even your hair, everything from your hair, your clothes, your demeanor, your body language, it all matters. I think any meeting personally, professionally, if you walk into a room with an air of confidence, but not with confidence, but without the arrogance.

Rana:

Yeah, without the,

Den:

Yeah. So with confidence and humility, I think if you can blend those two really well and you can walk into that room, I think presentable, you've got to look and present for the moment. I had a happy hour. It's really funny. This is a great example of this. I had a happy hour where I was meeting with a bunch of friends and they were just so happened to be looking for some resources to help with some projects or working on, but bit of a social setting. One of my old engineers from Adobe joins the happy hour, and I had said to him beforehand, I'm like, these guys are looking for people like you. So can think of this a bit like a job interview. You're going to meet these people for the first time and we might be able to place you with them, give you some good work.

And so just think of it. And the guy turned up as if he had just left his bedroom. And it was almost like, not to say he hadn't showered, but it was almost like as if he was just hanging out with some friends at a bar and nobody cared. And afterwards I said to him, I was like, do you remember the conversation we had before? So the first impression you gave these guys, the only thing I could turn around and say to them is said, well, he is a damn good engineer because his fashion sense sucks, and his social awareness kind of let him down a little bit too. And they just laughed because trying to salvage, this guy's a good engineer and he really is.

But that impression that he set, and I asked him this afterwards, I'm like, what do you want your brand to be? How do you want people to think of you when you meet them? Because every event you go to, whether it's a social event or a whatever, could be even your kid's birthday party and you turn up how you turn up, you don't know who you're going to meet at some of these things. So imagine that that could be the next best gig, the next best friend, the next best, whatever. Think of that and realize you're in control of the impression you're creating. So I think that's

Rana:

Huge. And one thing, impression then also is how are you making the other person feel? If you get into this meetings, and I've seen it happen where all you're talking about how great your product is, how great your company is, that's not leaving a good impression, that's leaving an impression of being very inwardly focused versus going in prepared to talk about their business, seeing something in their earnings called transcript that sparked curiosity, that's an impression you make. You're going to leave. They're going to think, wow, this person really cared and genuinely you should care. It can't be fake. But those are things that I think we need to think of when we're talking about brand. It's not just the fluff, it's truly doing the work

Den:

And there's a difference. I mean, is there a difference between selling a product versus selling a consultancy?

Rana:

In a consultant, I look at myself as I am the product, right? When you're selling, and so the way everything I do, everything I say, everything I show up, I better be practicing what I'm training, and it's very easy. You're going to have a product and you can sell that product and go away. When you're a consultant, you're selling, you're human, you're there. And so it's easier to, for, in my opinion, if you have a solid product versus a consultant, if you don't know your shit as a consultant, it's easy for them to spot that.

Den:

Yeah, yeah. I guess it's the product. In the product setting, your product solves five problems or three problems or whatever the problems solves, and then you go as you have the conversation with your prospect, if you know more about their business, if you know enough about their business, similar businesses that you've sold to before with your product, and you say, Hey, we know businesses like yours typically suffer from these three problems. If you suffer from these three problems, hey, we think we've got something to talk about. And I think the more you prize out what their problems and challenges are,

Rana:

Absolutely

Den:

The better.

Rana:

The best sellers are trusted consultants because they're diagnosing. They're not coming in with a problem already, I understand. Here's what you need. They're coming in with some validation of what's happening in this buyer's world based on our research, not assuming, validating, and then sharing some stories of how we've helped someone similar in that situation address this business problem and asking questions, and not asking questions for the sake of asking questions, but really asking intentional questions that can help you with intense curiosity to uncover more and find a solution.

Den:

Yeah, no, and I think that's one thing about where you are, and I am right, is naturally we're curious people. So when you ever meet someone, I sometimes get lost in solving the problem conversation and forget that I'm actually a consultant. For me, if I talk to someone, and I do this a lot in my personal life, but the minute I start talking to someone, they're like, oh, we're struggling with this and this and this. I just want to jump in there and be like, well, have you thought about this and what about that? And all of a sudden, I'm just in there brainstorming and troubleshooting because my curiosity and my desire to help and solve problems outs outshines my desire to sell you some shit. I mean, the selling and the monetizing, the thing is vitally important for our upkeep, but the biggest thing for me is I want to engage people that have problems that need help and that they recognize they need help, as opposed to us knocking on the door trying to convince someone that they have a problem and need help.

Rana:

It's collaboration. You're collaborating with your customers, and it becomes almost like a team. You become a team that you're trying to solve a problem and you take their input and insights. This is where also we have to also remind ourself and remind our sellers that these buyers that you're meeting with are smart and they've gone through experiences. And so taking that also actively listening to what they have to say and collaborating together and being creative and designing a solution that will help them becomes important. And also identifying what success looks like from both parties. What does success look like? Because one ROI that you think is great, they may not give a shit about it, right? And so when you start saying how you're working with your customers, collaboration becomes really important in building

Den:

Trust. It's huge, and that really is, I think the spirit of good business relationships is that regardless of where you sit, whether you're a seller, a buyer, an executive, an intern, all the way around our ecosystem, the most important thing for me is build solid relationships. You're based on trust. And then start to think of it like we're one team. The minute you realize it's us together or we're in it together, I think you can do a lot more. But I've met so many executives in IT and security or just teams in general that look at their vendor as nothing more than the supplier of stuff. Whereas I've always looked at this like we're one team together, because if I've got three or four vendors that are working with our team, we're actually one team together. I need those vendors to realize that there's five of them in this thing with us too, because very rarely is it just one supplier. Generally speaking, in order to, especially the Adobes and Ciscos of the world, you're doing something delivered into 40,000 people. One of our projects had five vendors pretty easily, maybe more, and if they weren't collaborating together with us all going forward, then the thing would've failed. We needed everybody to work together.

I know we're up with them. It's really funny. I look at my little grab bag of questions and I'm like, oh, shit, we could keep going here. So I really appreciate your time. I'd love to have you back on the show at some point. I want to dig a little bit more into really the sales side of things, and it could be cool in the future. I'll grab you in a couple of sales leaders, a little panel style discussion. I think that could be cool. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for bearing with me being the guy with a cold this week, but I didn't want to push it off because your time is busy and you're a hard lady to nail down sometimes. No, very. You're very busy, and so getting you on the schedule was great. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Of course, Sarna, we will put all the links in the show notes, so thank you very much. Thank you. Do you have a parting word for everybody? One little jam or nugget?

Rana:

Yeah, a stay hungry and stay humble. I think there's a book around that. So that would be my two words, my note. Thanks.

Den:

Four words forward. Yeah. Brilliant. Sena, thank you very much everybody. We appreciate you watching tuning in 9 0 9 Exec, the new name, the first show of the new name. Serena, thanks for being the guest on the newly rebranded 9 0 9 exec. Thanks everybody.

Narrator:

Thanks for listening to 9 0 9 exec. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and don't miss an episode of your source for wit and Wisdom in cybersecurity and beyond.

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